Q&A: Trump’s Damage to DOJ Will Be ‘Generational,’ Former Pardon Attorney Says

Last month, Liz Oyer, the Department of Justice’s (DOJ) former pardon attorney, said the Trump administration dismissed her after she opposed the restoration of gun ownership rights to actor Mel Gibson, a prominent supporter of President Donald Trump who lost his gun rights through misdemeanor domestic violence charges in 2011.

Oyer was among several high-ranking and longtime DOJ officials fired or demoted by the Trump administration as part of the president’s norm-shattering effort to eliminate the traditional separation between the department and the White House.

Oyer and other former DOJ officials are set to speak before Congressional Democrats Monday in a hearing over the Trump administration efforts to undermine the rule of law.

In an interview with Democracy Docket Thursday, Oyer discussed how Trump’s “multi-pronged assault” on the department, major law firms and the judiciary undermines central tenets of the U.S.’ justice system.

Responses have been edited for style and clarity.

To start us off, tell us a bit about yourself.

I served for the past three years in the Department of Justice as the pardon attorney. In that role, I reviewed applications for clemency from individuals around the country and prepared recommendations for the president.

Prior to my time as the pardon attorney, I spent nearly 10 years as a federal public defender representing clients in criminal cases. I would say that my experience as a federal public defender really shaped my views about the importance of second chances through clemency, and about where some of the excesses of federal sentencing can lie.

Trump’s attack on the department’s independence is rapidly expanding. What does this mean for the rule of law in our country?

I think that it is extremely important that the leaders of the department recognize that they serve the American people, that they’re entrusted with keeping us safe, protecting our civil rights and upholding the rule of law. 

The current leadership of the Department of Justice are all people who worked as Trump’s personal attorneys, and it does not appear that they have made the shift in mindset to their new role, which is serving the American people, not serving the president personally. And that is very concerning.

The attorney general has said, in numerous different ways, that she believes the entire career workforce of the Department of Justice, which is about 115,000 people, are all the president’s lawyers. That’s simply not the case, and that is concerning for the future of the rule of law. 

What do you think the department’s future looks like? How does it ever regain its independence?

I don’t know what the future holds, but it appears that there’s an assault on the rule of law from multiple directions.  

The current administration is attacking the defense bar, which is an incredibly important safeguard against the power of the Department of Justice. The administration is stripping away internal guardrails within the department, including rules around professional ethics and professional responsibility. The administration is also attacking the judiciary and the judges who are intended to be impartial decision makers in the legal system.

This multi-pronged assault on the rule of law is very scary. It appears that the damage is going to be generational in its impact.

Why have you decided to speak out about what’s happening inside the DOJ?

I think it’s important to shed some light on what is going on in the department. I think the department is bullying people into either stepping back or acquiescing to political priorities. And it’s important, in my view, to stand up to a bully, not to allow your career expertise to be used to provide sort of a veneer of legitimacy to decisions that are really political in nature.

I think all of the folks who are still trying to work inside the Department of Justice are very limited in the engagement they can have with the press and what they can say about what’s going on in the department. So I think it’s important for those of us who are no longer there to speak up.

Trump’s assault on legal independence is now moving beyond the department with his orders against private law firms. How do these moves undermine the nation’s justice system?

The attempt of the current administration to shake down the defense bar and to cripple the strong and independent defense function that is provided by some of these law firms is really frightening because it strikes at the heart of our whole adversarial system of justice. 

Some of the law firms the president is targeting are making the decision to limit themselves in the cases that they will take, to limit their independence. And that is a problem for all of those who are seeking strong representation.

Some firms have made agreements with Trump to get orders retracted or to preemptively avoid future orders. One concern I’ve seen is that the deals aren’t legally binding, so Trump could potentially change the terms in the future. Does that concern you?

He can and he will. I don’t know why anyone would have any confidence that the deal that they’ve agreed to is going to remain in place. 

The strategy that these firms are pursuing — it’s an appeasement strategy. It’s a strategy that historically has been ineffective, and I think the lesson of history is that trying to appease a bully only results in the bully taking advantage more and more.

I think it’s a big mistake to go down this road, and I have been very disappointed to see so many large law firms take this approach. I am incredibly grateful to those firms like WilmerHale that have decided to stand up to the administration’s bullying tactics.

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